Will collegate trained wrestlers take over MMA, UFC and other martial competitions, in the next decade?

This is where it seems to be going. In the early 90s, when I first started paying attention to MMA events, there were a ton of different styles competing... after a while, BJJ became the most popular system practiced, while other styles that were instrumental early on dropped out of these events. Lately though, I've seen more and more ex-college wrestlers at these, and they win. I think it's because of the training used at college level sports, and the interest of college level athletes in doing something professional with their skill.


With all this in mind, is it possible that within the next decade, those trained in an eastern martial art will be nearly impossible to find, while those trained in European Wrestling will be the norm?

Will collegate trained wrestlers take over MMA, UFC and other martial competitions, in the next decade?
MMA is still evolving but the rules IMO are evolving for the grappler... I know its for safty, but it makes them more "brave"... who knows where it goes from here.. jus enjoy the ride..
Reply:good BJJ beats good wrestling any time. In some tournaments wrestlers have advantages because of there take down skills. So they keep taking guys down and letting them up. Wrestling definitely provides a great base and they usually are the best trained atheletes which is why most of these guys take up BJJ and excel quickly. Most of the guys you see winning train BJJ and Muay Thai 4-5 days a week.
Reply:Well, if people start training 'self defense' with UFC rules i think we're going to have a lot of disappointed mugged people with no pocket books in the future. I can see someone attacking someone else, the fellow who got attacked was BJJ trained and the attacker somehow gets the upper hand and chokes him. Then the BJJ person taps the guys leg as if to say 'i'm tapping out now, i give i give!' and no can do, the guy twists his head off like a little stupid squirrel. Lesson learned, kicks that can keep him at a distance... the 'run like hell method' of MA, or the fabled 'kick to the groin' or 'punch to the troat' are not likely to go away anytime soon. Most traditional MA schools won't teach you
Reply:you have to be well rounded to win in MMA. having great BJJ, boxing, and Muay Thai will improve your chances for victory during a fight.





Coutoure, Koscheck, Lesnar, and Matt Hughes are the only names that comes to my mind. Both Hughes and Coutoure have been fighting for a while now. They have adapted to the MMA sport. Koscheck and Lesnar are still relatively new to the sport. Koscheck use the "Ground and Sleep" technique while Lesnar fought a scrub and won.





Eastern Martial Arts will always be around as long as there is MMA. wrestlers will come into the sport but they better use the eastern martial arts or they will not survive in the fight.
Reply:Actually I don't agree with the premise. It is the stand up fighters who are and will continue to take over.





Of course stand up with the ability to stuff takedowns and escape from the ground. Alot of time has to be devoted to ground fighting for any MMA fighter. Still if you look at some of the top guys - GSP, Anderson Silva, Liddell, Jackson, Wanderlai, CroCop this guys are stand up sensations. They may have great wrestling / BJJ but it is there stand up that differentiates them.
Reply:Well first to answer a few other answerers...





BJJ beats Good wrestling: Actually I would disagree with this, I see great BJJ guys getting beat by wrestlers in MMA constantly. Wrestlers with some submission defense training that is.





Agnostic Front: Seriously? An untrained lay person gets a choke on a experienced BJJ person (who trains in chokes daily, not just putting them on, but defending them, and being put in them) and the BJJ person taps... man that is a crazy world right there. I hate to tell you, but despite what Sensei Creese has taught you, "troat" punches and groin kicks aren't that successful, and are pretty much worthless if you are on the ground. Additionally, "kicking to keep the distance" is pretty much a sure fire way to get put on your ****. Kicking anywhere above the waist is pretty much worthless in a real fight without setting it up. Every true self defense system deals with close range fighting, clinching, and some form of grappling or ground control.





If a French Savate (consider the best kickers in the world) champ can't help but be taken down by a wrestler or BJJist half his weight, then how does the whole kicking for distance thing work out? (Gerard Gordeau vs. Yuki Nakai, or Royce Gracie)





Anyway, to answer your question Beatchanter, I would say you are seeing a more elite level of athlete entering the UFC now a days, and for as many former collegate wrestlers, there are ex NCAA football players, and all around athletes who have competed at a high level.





Wrestlers have been a huge part of MMA since the early days, guys like Dan Severn, Mark Coleman, Mark Kerr, etc. Wrestling translates well, because all you have to do is add a little submission defense and some striking training.





Anything is a good base.





Great strikers add wrestling and submissions, and take down defense.





I don't think you will see them take over, I think that it has evolve a great deal how it was. Previously during the crap years (as I like to call them) it was a wrestling dominated sport. Guys like Tito Ortiz, Mark Coleman, Kevin Randleman, etc held the belts by simply taking someone down and beating on them.





Soon there was an evolution to that, and guys who were great strikers but had some wrestling back ground started to emerge, and then other well rounded guys started to emerge.





I don't think you will see any one group of people "take over" I think some group will have success, someone will figure out how to counter it, will develop techniques for dealing with that, and it will just continue on and on. 5 years ago it was rare to see a spinning back kick, or hammer fists in MMA. Now guys have that in their arsenal.





I just see people getting more well rounded, better athletically as cardio plays a HUGE role in MMA, and it will constantly evolve. Someone will figure out a technique or style that works for them and will bring it in, dominate and someone will figure out how to beat that particular technique or style, and so on and so forth.





I think to be a good MMAist, you have to have a bit of everything, and you have to learn it from the source. Meaning you learn Muay Thai from a Muay Thai expert, Boxing from a boxing expert etc.





There will always be guys with a traditional base that have added on, and find a way to incorporate techniques that work from that base into their style. These are the people who are the most successful, guys who already come in with some tools before starting MMA.





I think you will see a downplay in general of arts that are internal or do little sparring or pressure testing. Until some Kung Fu guy figures out how to use a subset of techniques successfully against a resisting opponent.





I don't see a clearly dominant force or style, I see it evolving constantly, and it getting better athletes, who are more well rounded.





There are still strikers and grapplers now, it is just the strikers know grappling, and the grapplers know striking.





Anyway enough for my book. I hope I am clear, I think that technique wise MMA will be constantly evolving, and you will see more and more athletes (football, wrestling, kickboxing, etc) enter in it and have success due to having an athletic background and honing their body for sports already.





Just my two cents.
Reply:You haven't been paying much attention to MMA then. Couture, Coleman, Kerr, Hughes, Sherk, Liddell, Henderson, Lindland, Rampage, and other wrestlers, have been around for the last decade. You won't been seeing any more pure wrestlers like Coleman dominating anymore.
Reply:What is Collegate?





If you mean Collegiate, then the answer is no. Wrestling will remain a part of the UFC. It won't dominate because most college wrestlers earn a degree. They can usually get a more stable career after graduation. Some will continue to seek the adventure. The majority will not even consider the MMA.
Reply:Um... I think maybe you should watch TUF Season One..


and pay attention to Josh Koscheck first fights..


He knew how to take everyone down to the ground.. and sit on top of them.. and that was about it.


Josh has a a great college career in wrestling, and he's getting better and better each fight. However you should watch his last fight versus GSP and see how many times GSP took him down.


So to answer your question.. I dont see it trained wrestlers will take over ufc anytime soon, or within the decade. Not knocking trained wrestlers, but I dont see any form completely dominating the sport anytime soon.
Reply:no i doubt it there is no weight division at the moment dominated by wrestlers. in fact only handful of wrestlers are near the top of any divisions. keeping in mind sean sherk is a steroid cheat and id happen to suspect randy and matt hughes are too(bearing in mind randy is more athletic and stronger at 44 than he ever was) but the real great fighters (especiall at heavyweight) namely


fedor emelianenko gsp, gomi, diaz, vera, arlovski, cro cop, kharitonov, shogun rua, wandy , sokoudjou, arona, both nogeuira's, liddell(he competed at college level but was long before that a martial artist), paulo filho, anderson silva, franklin, okami, bj penn, gilbert melendez, rickson gracie, the list goes on and on and on.





some wrestlers are very good but only when they have different arts to accompany them. examples are


rampage jackson, tito ortiz, matt hughes, sean sherk, randy couture, dan henderson, matt lindland, mark coleman, josh koscheck and josh barnett but several of thes are certainly on roids or have been. i suspect randy, matt hughes, tito ortiz


matt lindland and mark coleman for various reason for which i will explain and sherk and barnett have been caught doing so.


hughes is simply far too strongly built and ripped for a white man to be if they are not marathon stamina fit which he isnt. couture is a 44 year old man and fitter than ever(something doesnt fit) and i gaurentee if the nevad state athletic commision took samples of his urin during training every 3 days he would get caught. rather than give him a date to get it out of his systme. tito has been juicing alot i think its his whole hight testosteron level thing and his head shape that is excluding his condition and fitness which are abnormal also. lidnland is known for not washing before grappling tournaments just to put his oponents off with his stench so he is a cheat by nature. mark coleman is very well know for abnormal athleticism and physice along with lack of fitness. you cant get ripped unless you are doing bundles of cardio or on roids which do you think. he is also famous for running team hammerhouse and other juiced up idiots like mark kerr kevin randleman and phil baroni. im not sure about wes sims who is in hammerhouse but all the rest admitted abuse. now im not saying only wrestlers take roids i mean royce gracie has taken em. but its obvious when he has i mean he sucked in the hughes fight but then against saku he was very strong.





i know what you are thinking. you dont like me talkin **** about randy but i cant cant help but speculate you know and when things seem too good to be true they usually arent
Reply:Judomofo hit the nail on the head with his ten page honors thesis, LOL! But seriously, it was a great read and I couldn't agree more.





Bruce Tzu also has a good point, we've definitely seen effective strikers come into their own by learning how to defend the takedown, Anderson Silva and Chuck Liddell come to mind. The best ground fighters will continue to figure out how to get it to the ground though, the evolution will continue, back and forth.





Agnostic Front: You are a disgrace to punk rock and a disgrace to the name Agnostic Front.





hONOR roll player: You're right, most collegiate wrestlers get degrees and can have careers that are more lucrative and stable. However, if they'd like to continue competitive wrestling after college, it's almost impossible to make a living from this. That's why we see so many wrestlers moving to MMA after college. They are well educated people but they love their sport and MMA is a way for them to keep doing it. Boxers and kickboxers can be career fighters in their sport so we don't see as many of them come to MMA. This is why we'll continue to see more wrestlers come to MMA than from any other sport, they have no where else to go. Not to mention that wrestling skills are an integral part of MMA. The wrestler exodus to MMA could be a major reason why roughly 80% of the UFC's fighters have bachelor degrees.





With that said, I think wrestling will continue to be a part of MMA because their skills and training translate directly to MMA, but pure wrestlers will not take over. The best wrestlers must put equal time and effort into the other aspects of the fight game. Rather than collegiate wrestlers taking over, I think really good high school wrestlers who start training striking and BJJ immediately after high school will be the most successful in the near future. The other skills are equally important.





Edit:


Jay 101, if your black belt instructor got subbed by a wrestler with no submission experience than that belt's not worth the cloth it's made out of. Don't get me wrong, great wrestlers can learn BJJ faster than anyone, they already have the ability to gain and hold dominant position and that's half the equation. However, a black belt should easily be able to exploit the wrestler's lack of submission defense, at worst it should be a stalemate.





My shcool is right near Arizona State University and we've had several successful collegiate wrestlers come train at our school after their college tenure, many are still there. The training and conditioning of these athletes is second to none, they fit extremely well into our system. Even the best wrestlers still get subbed by anyone with six months of training or more. I recall tooling a 3-time all American when I was a white belt with only 4 months experience, and that's pretty typical. That is until wrestlers learn how to defend submissions from inside the guard. Pure wrestlers tend to do things that get them subbed, i.e. forearm under chin (easy armbar), post hand on floor next you (easy kimura), push your leg down to break guard (easy triangle), and worst of all they're always putting their head in spots that make them easy to Guillotine.





Anyway, all I'm trying to say is that either your instructor sucks, or that particular wrestler was lying about his previous submission experience (probably the latter because somebody gave him a black belt).
Reply:Didn't GSP just dominate the "up and coming" Josk Koscheck? Didn't Chuck hold the belt for almost 2 years (and everyone here might say he was an all american wrestler, but he hasn't attempted a take down since his prom). Bisping will also show Hamill an azz whooping. Nothing against these fighters, but if you look at the champs (not on steroids):





Rampage - All around fighter


Silva - Brazilian Jiu Jitsu


Sherk - yes a wrestler - but watch GSP v. Sherk


Couture - ok - can't deny the wrestling


Matt Serra - Brazilian Jiu Jitsu





So I don't see the domination that you are speaking of. I hate BJ Penn but if he or Ken Florian get the (soon to be) 155 belt, that would make 3 belts owned by BJJ fighters, 1 by a wrestler, and 1 by a "street fighter"





Sorry man I don't see it......
Reply:Yes! I believe that wrestlers will take over MMA. Actually they already have begun too. One example is how easy Matt Hughes beat Royce Gracie. (BJJ is influenced by Asian jujitsu and Judo).





The UFC showed how overrated and unrealistic eastern martial arts is. Need proof watch UFC or Pride!





Supposedly even Bruce Lee said a good wrestler or boxer could beat a martial artist who has 15 years of experience!





One more thing. I have personally seen a ex-college wrestler from some small Div 3 school beat a black belt in BJJ in his FIRST BJJ class! The BJJ black belt wanted to spar the wrestler before class started. He was TRYING to prove that BJJ can beat a wrestler anytime! He was wrong!
Reply:I don't believe it will supplant the eastern martial arts. College wrestlers are in MMA in such large numbers for several reasons:


1) College athletic programs are designed more as job for the athletes than amateur dojos around the country.


2) Colleges actively recruit the nations top high school athletes for their programs and then develop there bodies endurance and strength.


3) Many do see the UFC as their version of the NFL





Wrestling is just the base for many of these athletes. When they get to the UFC they cross train in Eastern Martial Arts to prepare for the competition. This fills in the gaps in their knowledge such as submissions. Early in the UFC the majority of grapplers were wrestlers, and Judo and Jujitsu fighters demolished them with submissions while strikers knocked them out until they cross trained. Take Mark "The Hammer" Coleman, Ken Shamrock, and Dan Sevrin as good examples.
Reply:No wrestlers had their day back 90's when Mark Coleman and Mark Kerr were walking through guys, but just like jiu jitsu people caught on. Now there are some wrestlers who are doing well like Tito (mainly due to his hyping of fights rather than actual ability), Matt Hughes, and Koscheck (both of who were outclassed by non-collegiate wrestler GSP). Also even if your a good wreslter and win your fights no one wants to see a lay'n'pray fighters and the UFC in particular don't move boring fighters up in the ranks. Justin Mcully came out a defeated highly hyped Enersto Hooste trained kickboxer Antonie Hardonk in his debute by a boring lay'n'pray decision, Hardonk has since fought Frank Mir and Mcully has yet to be asked back.





Also with Title IX (legislation requiring colleges to have equal sport opportunities for male and female students) collegiate wrestling programs are becoming fewer and fewer. There has already been lots of major colleges drop their wrestling programs (because they will never drop football) and more are likely to follow suit.