As a sports based Martial Artist in a streetfight vs....?

Hello,





I am a pro MMA fighter, former amateur Muay Thai kickboxer, and National Judo competetor and Submission wrestler. I spend most of my time studying Judo, Sambo, BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, and Kickboxing. Those are the focuses of my training now.





They are considered "Sport based Martial Arts" and deemed by many more traditional arts as "ineffective on the street" rather than argue that point my question is this.





Since the techniques listed as so deadly street effective are throat strikes, eye gouges, nut shots, vein rips, and kicks to the knees. (These things that traditionalist train for street effectiveness) By nature my chin is tucked defending my throat (also defending getting KO'd) and the stance and placement of knees do not leave them in danger of any frontal hyperextension.





So would wearing sunglasses (necessary in Florida), jeans (as I do most of the time) and a cup pretty much negate any of the "street effective" techniques of these other Martial Arts?

As a sports based Martial Artist in a streetfight vs....?
Wow, the ignorance on this forum is unbelievable, and yes, In my opinion I would say that your apparel would negate the effectiveness of the techniques you mentioned (not sure why you would always be wearing a cup though). I would also argue that there are other factors that negate the effectiveness of those traditional martial arts techniques.





Traditional techniques such as eye gouges, throat strikes, nut shots, and vein rips are too dangerous to be practiced on a live resisting opponent. If you can't practice them in live sparring than YOU DON'T KNOW IF THEY WORK!! All the arts that Judomofo studies require a significant amount of live sparring, as well as drills. Drills may familiarize you with the correct technique, but if you don't use those techniques sparring you will never become comfortable enough to use them in a self defense situation.





Chuck,





Big surprise, they won't let people into the UFC with sticks, but I'm pretty sure they'd be welcome if they left the sticks at home. Nice example about getting in a fight at a pool hall/bar, can you think of many other places where you would conveniently have a stick nearby? Weren't you saying something earlier about avoiding confrontation? It's pretty easy to mind your own business and avoid fights in a bar, I've never seen an unprovoked attack in a bar, it's people with huge egos that won't swallow their pride and back down. Bottom line, if someone has a stick or any weapon, his opponent is in trouble. Usually you won't have a stick so the next best thing is learning an art form that works and can be practiced. It certainly wouldn't hurt to learn some weapons defense though like Krav Maga's system, but that's about the best you can do in those situations.





Sune_Templar,





Have you ever seen a plastic lense from a modern pair of sunglasses shatter? And besides that, do you really think a trained kickboxer, someone who spends 50% of his time doing live sparring is going to let anyone just walk up and punch him in the face? The glasses won't make a difference other than to protect him against eye gouges, you make it sound like they're a weapon that will be used against him. That's crap, if the glasses break they'll just fall off. Also, he's a kickboxer, of course he doesn't lean his head foreward and he probably has excellent blocks for headstrikes using elbows, forearms, hands, shoulders, and head movement. Moving right along, broken pelvis, are you kidding?!! And my last contention, he trains BJJ his opponent is the one who should be worried about joint attacks. It's obvious you have no experience and no clue, go back to your Dragonball Z.





Jason,





Thank you for a rational answer, I don't feel so alone.





Mac1hull,





WTF are you talking about? So you're saying that a fighter has to be in perfect pre-fight shape in order to defend himself, and all his skills, knowledge, and training will be completely useless otherwise. Why don't you go find a sick, off season fighter and find out.





Bluto,





Your chi is weak, mine works from several feet away!





R. Lee,





All those items you mentioned do make sportfighting less than completely realistic. However, the training methods that go into being a succesfull MMA fighter are still the best and most realistic for streetfighting.
Reply:Yes, however you have failed to mention how you're going to protect yourself from the elbow to the back anti-grapple and chi balls thrown at you.
Reply:In a fair fight the sport artist wins most the time from that good ole equation called experience.


But in the street no winner if you think you can judge an opponent in any fashion.


And Judo, Newaza is the best suited in my opinion for what works in a fair situation. So if your question is what you know as to effectiveness, watch IFL, or Pride or the UFC.


But please also realize whom is not allowed to fight there, so that does leave a question as to street worthyness.


Jimi Woo said and I agree with this


Never Judge an Opponent


this was not meant in a sporting sense.
Reply:No, but I'm sure you can handle yourself quite well also.
Reply:Sorry, but no. If you were wearing sunglasses and I hit you in the face you'd suffer a chance of getting pieces of busted plastic/glass in your eyes (your eyes still aren't truly protected) as I'm sure you know a trained fighter can certainly hit hard enough to break eyewear.





Keeping your chin down is great, but I'd say make sure you don't lean your head foreward as that's just giving your opponent a target; not to mention that they don't have to aim for the front of your throat -- that's just the preferred spot.





Your stance sounds like it could be solid, however, keep in mind that you're thinking of a frontal assault and the average Bobby Thug on the street isn't going to face you man to man. You should keep mobile to avoid getting your knees kicked from the sides as well as any attack from the rear.





Finally, the cup would protect your groin unless they happen to hit you hard enough and properly in that they'd break your pelvic bones. But hey! Your junk would be alright! :)





Realistically, it's your joints and your body that you want to protect as the eyes, throat, and nose are all small targets and a trained fighter in a true fight wouldn't go for them unless they knew for sure they could hit you in them. It's hard enough to hit someone while he's trying to dodge you let alone smack that 1/2" diameter target.





I hope that answers your question.
Reply:Ive been in traditional martial arts all my life and am a instructor.I can tell you that what your studing is the absolute best method for street or "true" self defense. Thats why most of us traditional guys are cross-training in the same stuff your training in.





All martial arts will work if the right person uses them and is good enough with it. However, boxing/kickboxing and grappeling are tried and true ways for effective self defense. They're the best really.





I mean...the "vital points" crap and "death blows" are just fiction. In a real fight they have a very low percentage of actually landing or working.
Reply:I've practice Judo since 1968 and we never consider Judo a sport. Today it is practiced as a sport which is the ruiniation of Kodokan Judo.





But ring fighting styles like Muy Thai were never really meant to be used in a street fight where knives, guns, sticks, clubs, groups, and God knows what else are involved. Even BJJ lacks weapons training and defense. Ring styles or blue gi styles are not complete fighting systems. Professional boxers experience the same problem in a street fight, they lose too.





In 1968 and the early seventies the Martial Arts community chided the sports atmosphere as unrealistic since in a street confrontation you never know when it is going to happen, and you might not be in the best of health or attitude when you get attacked in a parking lot, side walk, public park, or anywhere else. So training hard for a fight at a specific time and place is unrealistic to a martial arts street fight situation. The mugger or muggers won't care if you have the flu, or slightly depressed, or if its raining or snowing or hot or cold; the mugger is gonna jump you regardless.





The sport type of fighting is a nice ego enhancing activity in a protected environment of a referee and screaming fans/witnesses. But that atmosphere doesn't exist when you come home late from work and unexpectedly get jumped by two goons.





So consider those differences between a no-rules dirty street fight vs. a ring match.
Reply:the sunglasses r a bad idea because if they break the glass is going 2 fly into your eyes. but a cup? come on are you really planning to get in a fight with some one that u need protection, your skill should be enough to protect u from a fight (if your opponent is inexeprienced.
Reply:As for tucking the chin:





This simply will not work as if I hit the top of your head hard enough, my chi will focus through your chin, causing not only your neck, but jaw to shatter making you look something like this:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/285000/ima...


Instead I reccomend purchasing a hard plastic football neck guard and wearing it at all times.





As for the jeans and knee placement:





This will not work all the time, as any tma stylist who never spars because it is too dh34dly will tell you that the only way for a person to avoid this is to cut off thier leg just above the knee. Thus the nut shot is incredibly hard to hit, and good luck breaking a steel wheelchair!


This technique will also completely negate the need to sprawl for takedown defence!





As for the cup:


the cup is inefficient, see the plastic can smash with a super hard kong phooey karate chop to the nuts so it will hurt you more. What I suggest is walking around with an enraged badger down your pants at all times. If a karate champ is dumb enough to hit you there- well he loses a hand.





call it "tough love".





As for sunglasses:





No, because you see the evil pressure point dim mak monkey babbon's butt attack will puncture the sunglasses. Wtih modern technology today bieng what it is, it won't be long before we have bionic eyes, till that point I suggest you pluck out your own eyes and replace them will ping pong balls with cat-like slits painted on them. This will make you immune to that.





see your approach to martial arts has been all wrong, try these methods to defend on the str33t and you will become an invincible combination of man and machine in no time.





EDIT:


seriously, I could respond to with the "traditionalist who trains realistically" and doesn't have illusions that practicing kata flawlessly will teach you to fight or that playing "martial tag" counts as sparring, but I would rather stand by my answer.
Reply:Maybe ballistic glasses :D now all u need to do is wear a motorcycle helmet for the d3adly headbutts+rabbit punches+fishooking+liprips and some kinda armor on the femoral biceps and buttocks to cover the sciatic nerve. Matter of fact, just wear a whole set of biker armor. And then someone can still twist your fingers off so wear a good set of kote and wrist support. Then the total set of effective techniques is reduced considerably.





when you get down to it, rules in sportified buttkicking mostly just limit what you wear, where you can strike, what you can strike with, what you can grab, when you can start, when you have to stop, from what position you begin the fight, how many people can fight at once, what the conditions of victory are, how much you can weigh, and what kinds of performance-enhancing drugs you can use. So mostly the same techniques are used as in a no-rules situation except that the techniques that can easily cause death or serious/permanent injury are disallowed in favor of moves that more often than not allow contestants to continue competing and training at a later time if not immediately after losing a bout.
Reply:The answer, I believe, is simple.





Traditional Arts are limited on the practical application side. Yes you can learn all kinds of forms, break boards and bricks, and even compete in "controlled sparring" tournaments. What is lacking with the typical traditionalist is the actual full-contact experience of being hit with a blow that has not been pulled.





Those of us who have and do compete in real world, full speed, full contact competition KNOW what it feels like to get hit hard. We do not wonder how we might react the first time we get into a real fight. I have seen a lot of people in my career who decide they no longer want to be a fighter the first time they get hit with a real punch or kick. There's nothing wrong with that. Fighting is not for everyone.





You can be a traditionalist and not fight, that's ok too, but if the day comes that you get into a real fight you can't honestly predict right now how you will actually react to getting hit, REALLY HIT!





We "sportists" can.
Reply:i can almost guarantee you that any good sport based martial artist has also had some training and knowledge of those "deadly" strikes. the thing about the sport stuff is that there are rules involved for at least some sense of safety. during most sport competitions the fighters/competitors stop short of where it might get to the point that they might need to use those other, more damaging techniques. not only that, things such as eye gouges, throat strikes and what not should be a last resort. I'm not saying that any sport based martial artist can take on any traditionalist and win or visa versa. I'm just saying that if a fight get's to point, both fighters know where to strike and how to strike it. i personally feel that the rules against eye gouging, nutt striking, throat punching, etc should tell any sport martial artist with any common sense that those rules are there for a reason. they know full well that you don't strike there in the ring or octagon for good reason. and if they ever got into a street fight with a traditional martial artist, they would know enough that they are no longer in the ring/octagon, put 2 and 2 together and take no chances and really put a beating on the other guy.
Reply:any martial art whether it be sports based or traditional gives you an edge over the normal man on the street simply because your fitness level and you know how to throw a punch and a kick.no true martial artist would say sports based ma are ineffective and any ma knows cross training is the key to effective street defence.as a martial artist you should be able to adapt and compensate in advance so if a technique is negated you should already have thought of at least another 3 before it gets to that stage.as for being hit with glasses on you should go back to the basics of awareness, alertness and avoidance. and no those things you mention don't negate those techniques but i guess that would depend on the skill level and the experience of the ma?
Reply:The reason why someone doing something that is deemed a "sport" martial art will do better on the street will depend on if the person doing the "self defence" art has ever had a real fight





Its not that kung fu, alot of karate, TKD is ineffective, its the way that their training is done thats a problem. Unless you have street fights on a regular basis you will not build up the mental attitude needed





I do Kyokushin and we allow any style to participate at our full contact tournaments as long as they respect our rules, we have many Muay Thai (who do quite good), TKD, and other karate fighters





You always see someone from say shotokan karate come up to fight looking all confident, as soon as the first punch lands you see the guy just fall apart, not because his techniques is ineffective, basicaly they do the same thing as kyokushin but because they never learn to get hit once it happons the fear completely takes over and they dont know what to do





Whats more i have herd of people getting into bar fights where they completely freeze up and let the other guy belt them, their brain just goes haywire





You need to be put under pressure and pushed to your limit to be effective in a fight, the only way to do this, less actually going out looking for fights is to enter tournaments and fight full contact





Also if people did fight full contact i think they would change alot of things around because they would realize some things would not work in a fight





As a conclusion i would say that its not about the art itself, its about the training, if you a bouncer and you study kunf fu and get into many street fights contantly you would do better against a say a Muay Thai fighter who only thought in competitions because nothing beats street exp, but if they have no fiughting exp or very little of it they are ******





Also i would agree that Muay Thai will not teach you all the sneaky moves you will need for the street, but they are not that hard to grasp and be good at if you have other training, one of the best and funnyes DVDs to get is Bas Ruttens street defence, I agree that Muay Thai is treated too much like a sport in western countrys, in Thailand they actually have traditional Muay Thai which has all the sneaky stuff and somtimes even grapling, but the sneaky stuff isnt hard to learn and nobody can full practice it on someone, it will just have to come out in a real fight





whats more important is the mentality, the fitness and the conditioning you get from your trianing, anyone can gouge an eye, but to do it under pressure is alot harder
Reply:well now mofo if you believe this crap of street effective martial arts then i guess you are a fool. most of them rely on you being a chump who lunges in with a right hand and them being able to parry your punch away controling the elbow and delivering throat or groin strikes or bending or breaking the wrist. it wont work against a good mixed martial artist it wont even work well on me unless you are very good.





you need to train in strking and judo or jujitsu or both along with some wrestling and conditioning. the dojo i study at blends both aikido judo and jujitsu with a bith of sword training and the likes of street based striked like groin strikes but this so called street based style wont work on a seasoned striker who doesnt stand in the pocket and try and grab and trade.





on top of all this most of these so called street style martial artists wont have had any competition in fighting. they only have training. experience means alot in a fight not just having been in similar situations and fighing regularly but even the nerves and calmnes of a mixed martial artist will win over groin strikes any time!





on the point that you made about the sunglasses jeans and cup i do believe that that is unlikely to happen and you jujistu wont work on them
Reply:I don't think you can negate all attacks even if you wear a full suit of armor.





This garbage that people some people are pushing about so called Martial Sports are just being injected to create division. It's not going to work on this old salty dog.





The fact is that Judo is one of the purest form of martial arts and in contests, you play for points. This the sporting portion of the art. Wrestling is thought to be pure sport, but in reality you will practice discipline, keep your grades up, and behave yourself, or you are off the team. That sounds a lot like a martial art, more so than a Jr. Black Belt club, or Jr. Ninjas etc.





On the other end of the spectrum you have Kung Fu, which I would never consider using in self-defense. Someone can claim a pressure point can paralyze someone in seconds and it doesn't take much study to find these on the human body. The problem is that the traditionalist is going to have a hard time holding on to that when elbows are repetitively striking him in the eye socket. A genuine traditionalist knows this.





I also have never heard a genuine Martial Artist speak even one foul word about those of us who chose to compete, either in point or full contact events. I only read this on the Internet, where a lot of people are confusing their "Mortal Combat" video gaming, with real life experience.